Author Topic: High Speed ATC Spindles  (Read 9965 times)

Offline Bob La Londe

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High Speed ATC Spindles
« on: February 27, 2019, 15:32:23 pm »
Is anybody running a 24K ATC spindle?  An import? 

After getting used to using the quick change TTS tooling and the tool table on my Tormach I've really come to realize how much time I am wasting on the little Syil Speedmasters with their ER collet spindles.  I'm thinking something with an ISO20 taper tool holder.  Same power, but much faster tool changes. 


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Offline Garyhlucas

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2019, 17:53:08 pm »
Bob,
Does your Tormach have the power drawbar too? Thirty years ago I got a Kurt power drawbar for a Bridgeport and the machinist was blown away by the time savings. On my homebuilt machine I use a right angle impact wrench. Just holding the tool in the spindle by hand and it gets the collet tight enough that I have never had a TTS holder pull out. Until last week when I took the impact wrench with me to a job site then couldn’t find it for a couple of days. Had 3 pullouts!

Working with the First Robotics club they have these tiny VEX Versaplanetary gear boxes that you can assemble to get 3 to 1 up to 1000 to 1 reduction and the final output shaft can put out up to 70 ft/lbs of torque!  I am thinking a thick race bearing on an eccentric pushing down a stack of belleville washers to release a tool. No air needed. I used to build a mechanism like this with one normally closed limit switch with lobes 180 degrees apart. Motion stopped when it hit the limit switch. The push button in parallel caused it to turn 180 degrees each time. One push releases the tool, next push grips the new tool.
Gary H. Lucas

Have you read my blog?
 http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/

Offline Bob La Londe

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2019, 18:13:07 pm »
I have the power draw bar on the Tormach.  However I am not asking about the Tormach.  Tool changes are fast on the Tormach, but the Tormach is primarily a supplemental machine.  

I'm asking about 24K (typically 400hz, but some are 800hz) spindles for my primary money making machines.  They currently have ER collet spindles.  I am asking about similar size and speed spindles with an ISO 20 quick change spindle nose to replace the ER spindles on those machines.  

That's the problem with providing context and background.  Anyway.  I am not asking about Tormach machines, spindles or tool holders.  

For similar application to your comments I added additional spring washers to my draw bar stack, modified the bar for enough clearnace, and tightened it until 120PSI is required for the tool to just barely release.  I have not experienced pull out issues unless running very bad chatter since.  The problem with TTS and the power draw bar is the reccomended settings in the Tormach installation manual are not adequate. 



« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 18:18:41 pm by Bob La Londe »
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Offline StefanR.

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2019, 07:41:18 am »

Offline Bob La Londe

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2019, 18:00:18 pm »
Thanks Stefan.  Yes I am in the USA.  Those are the types of spindles I have been looking at except that I'll be looking for one with a fully straight body and cap. 
Getting started on CNC?  In or passing through my area?
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Offline Bob La Londe

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2019, 17:00:35 pm »
Well, I ordered one along with a few tool holders with ER16 and ER20 collets.  

The one I decided I liked is rated at 1.8Kw, and my existing spindle (for that machine) is rated at 1.5Kw.  Some might argue its not a good idea, but experience tells me as long as I don't ever load the spindle it won't matter.  Even if I do it will just trip the VFD safety.  I already know those Delta VFDs can take a lot.  I've put loads (by mistake) on them heavy enough to bog the motor, and I've learned a lot.  

Fingers crossed that its not an expensive mistake.  

So any Mach 3 users know how I can pass the tool number to the tool change macro so I can embed the G43 Hxxx in the tool change macro instead of inserting G43 Hxxx in the code with the post processor.  I wouldn't have an issue with using the post, but I have two other nearly identical machines that will still have fully manual tool change and touch off.  I don't want things going wonky because I "forgot" to set or change something when doing CAM.  



« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 17:02:38 pm by Bob La Londe »
Getting started on CNC?  In or passing through my area?
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Offline Garyhlucas

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2019, 19:19:00 pm »
Bob,
What one did you buy?
Gary H. Lucas

Have you read my blog?
 http://a-little-business.blogspot.com/

Offline Bob La Londe

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 16:56:12 pm »
I'll see what it says on the motor (if anything) when it arrives.  I bought it from a reseller called Powace whom I have purchased basic water cooled spindles from in the past when Solar.Jean didn't have what I wanted.  The Powace motor looks identical to the one pictured in the RATTM motors listings, but Powace has a lot more feedback and slightly higher feedback than Rattm.  

I think I have purchased closed loop super high torque steppers from Rattm before though.  
Getting started on CNC?  In or passing through my area?
If I have the time I'll be glad to show you a little in my shop. 

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Offline dh42

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 22:09:34 pm »
Hello

if in CB
T{$tool.index} M6 G43 H{$tool.index}

In mach3 you can use GetCurrentTool() to know the tool in use.

Function GetCurrentTool() As Integer
This function returns the currently active tool number.
Arguments:
None
Return Value:
Current tool number, 1-253.
Example:
‘ Tell the user which tool is active
Message “Current Tool is “ & GetCurrentTool() & “ = >
“ & GetToolDesc()
See also:
SetCurrentTool(), GetSelectedTool(), ToolLengthOffset(), GetToolParam(),
SetToolParam(), GetToolChangeStart(), GetToolDesc(), SetToolX(), SetToolZ()

(Mach3_V3.x_Macro_Prog_Ref.pdf page 17)

You can also get information about a tool with its number.

GetToolParam
Function GetToolParam(ToolNum As Integer, ParamNum As Integer)
This function allows any tool parameter, except the description text, for any tool to be
read. ToolNum is the number of the tool whose parameters are being set, and can be
from 1 to 255. ParamNum is a parameter number, defined as follows:
For Mach3Mill:
1 = Diameter
2 = Z Offset
3 = X Wear
4 = Z Wear
For Mach3Turn:
1 = Tip Type
2 = Tool Radius
3 = X Offset
4 = Z Offset
5 = X Wear
6 = Z Wear
7 = Turret Angle
Arguments:
ToolNum is an Integer tool number, and must be between 1 and 255.
Return Value:
Requested parameter value, as a Double
Example:
‘ Define some constants
DiameterParam = 1
ZoffsetParam = 2
XwearParam = 3
ZwearParam = 4
‘ Display tool #23 parameters
Diam = GetToolParam(23, DiameterParam)
Length = GetToolParam(23, ZoffsetParam)
Xwear = GetToolParam(23, XwearParam)
Zwear = GetToolParam(23, ZwearParam)
Desc = GetToolDesc(23)
Message “Tool 23: Diam=“ & Diam & “ Length=” & Length
_
& “ Xwear=” & Xwear & “ Zwear=” & Zwear & “ Desc=” &
Desc
See also:
SetToolParam(), GetToolDesc()

++
David

Offline Bob La Londe

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2019, 17:49:25 pm »
What a cute little tool holder. 
Getting started on CNC?  In or passing through my area?
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Offline Bob La Londe

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2019, 20:43:45 pm »
Spindle arrived yesterday.  Un-boxed it today. 

First thing I noticed is they threw in one complimentary ER tool holder. 

After splitting the inner foam block I found the spindle was labeled Rattm Motors.  I guess Powace and Rattm are the same company or buy their spindles from the same factory. 
Getting started on CNC?  In or passing through my area?
If I have the time I'll be glad to show you a little in my shop. 

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Offline lloydsp

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2019, 22:07:01 pm »
Pretty!  Let us know how it works for you.

I do mostly DEEP routing in PVC, and it takes a lot of HP plus a lot of vacuum to keep the cuts clean.

I'm always looking for other solutions that cost less time and power.

Lloyd
"Pyro for Fun and Profit for More Than Fifty Years"

Offline kvom

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2019, 12:17:38 pm »
What's the process for changing tools?

Offline Bob La Londe

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2019, 15:38:25 pm »
Lloyd, 

This one is 1.8Kw.  (2+hp)   I'll probably never push it harder than about 0.8Kw (1+hp) like I do my current spindles, but they do make spindles like this that are much more powerful. 


kvom,

You know I'm not sure yet.  It uses air to to disengage and reengage the pull claw on the pull stud, but in the limited documentation (very limited) there is a refference to a 24V signal for tool changes.  I won't know for sure until I put some air to it I guess.  I wuld note the limited specs show different air pressure ranges for everything.  Looks like I might need more than one air regulator. 


Getting started on CNC?  In or passing through my area?
If I have the time I'll be glad to show you a little in my shop. 

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Offline lloydsp

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Re: High Speed ATC Spindles
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2019, 17:42:20 pm »
I'm presently running a 5HP Columbo spindle.  It's a great motor.  The only thing I hate about it is the tool changes.

But, I can live with that, given I'd probably have to spend another $3K (or more!) for a more-modern 5HP unit with easier tool changes.

Lloyd
"Pyro for Fun and Profit for More Than Fifty Years"